This is the last of a three-part special interview with Amnesty International Secretary-General Agnes Callamard. She discusses Israel, Palestine, death penalties in Singapore and in the region, artificial intelligence, and the recent protests in France, her native country.
Read the first part here and second part here.
Israel and Palestine
“They are actually present in a settlement area in violation of international law. So we’re trying to focus on economic relationship and on a transfer of weapons.
“As long as the United States is providing billions of military support, I think it’s going to be a hard call. But even in the United States, the majority of Americans are now convinced that the rights of Palestinians are being violated. So we need to keep working at it, keep demanding that our government walk the line.
Editor’s note: Since this interview was conducted, US President Donald Trump announced on 3 November that Washington would end approximately US$4 billion in annual military aid to Israel by the end of 2026, while continuing to sell it weapons. However, the existing US-Israel military assistance agreement runs until 2028, and it remains unclear how or when the proposed funding cut would be implemented.
“Some of them are speaking the right thing, such as the Thai government, some European governments, but many are not acting in accordance with their words. They are not stopping their companies from doing business with Israel, and they are continuing to sell, maybe indirectly, weapons or bits and pieces of weapons. So that is what we’re focusing on at the moment.
“The [Israeli] election for us won’t change much in terms of the situation on the ground. We do not believe that whichever coalition government is established, we do not believe that it will fundamentally change Israel’s policy in the West Bank or in Gaza or indeed in Lebanon or in Syria.”
Death Penalty in Singapore and Southeast Asia
“So another regional trend related question is around the death penalty. So the question is, what are the regional trends on the death penalty? And could more ASEAN countries potentially abolish them? Yes, well, Singapore. Yes, Singapore should abolish it.
The regional trends are not bad, actually, except for Singapore. Several ASEAN countries have a moratorium on execution. Indonesia for 10 years.
“Malaysia and Thailand will also have a moratorium in 2027, 2028. There has been positive legal reforms. Thailand has reduced the scope for the death penalty in terms of the kind of drug-related offences that it can be used for.
“Also in Malaysia, where the number of people on death row has shrunk considerably from 1,200 to 100. And Indonesia, a new criminal code provision classified the death penalty as a punishment of last resort. Vietnam, which is not a great country for death penalty, but there too, they appear to be using it less.
“All right, so the biggest, you know, the biggest problem is Singapore is the main outlier. It’s unbelievable. It’s one of the richest countries in the world. Certainly one of the richest countries in the region. It has the means to and should have the vision to look for alternative punishment to the death penalty. So just this year, they have carried out 19 executions, all for drug-related offences.
“And we know that death penalty does not stop drug trafficking. Death penalty does not stop any crimes for that matter. It is just an ugly revenge-driven form of punishment.
“I mean, it is, when you think of it, when you unpack it, it is really ugly. It is highlighting an ugly dimension of the society, in my view.”
Khaosod English:
“May I add on Singapore? Is AI (Amnesty International) even on the ground?”
“Not in Singapore. We’re not quite there yet.”
Khaosod English:
“So you can’t even campaign, say, a Singaporean citizen cannot hold an AI placard at Speakers Corner saying no to death penalty. That’s illegal in Singapore?”
“Yes, absolutely. They will not be, we will not encourage them to do that unless they want to get arrested. No, we are not, we are not welcomed in Singapore. I’ve never been to Singapore.
“We know that in addition to death penalty, the other issue that Singapore is sadly well known for is its attack on, violations on freedom of expression and freedom of the media. There is no space for dissent, no space for expression that are not endorsed or tolerated by the authorities.”
Artificial Intelligence
“AI being artificial intelligence. Can it be used to violate human rights? Absolutely. So AI for
Amnesty is a big priority.
“It is one of the number one priorities. We consider the AI, artificial intelligence, and more generally the data-based revolution, as multiplying human rights violations. It is not necessarily inherent to the revolution, but that is what is happening.
“Why? Because the business model of the companies behind that revolution is predicated on data being taken away on a massive scale without informed consent, being treated as their property. It is predicated on the notion that algorithms will make a determination as to which information will get to people, and in general that is based on an algorithm that is privileging hateful, rather disgusting content. So it is a major spread of hatred, racism, and so on.
“In addition to that, it is being used by government for facial recognition on a massive scale, which violates the right of privacy. It is used for surveillance. We have just launched a report that has shown how a government such as Morocco has been using Pegasus again to do an awful surveillance of human rights defenders.
“Last week there was more evidence coming out from Citizen Lab, one of our partners, demonstrating that some of those surveillance cyberware, I would say, cyberware tools are being downloaded into our system without us even having to click on anything. Are downloaded and then given effect? Of course, it is downloaded in your system through some little spyware. So you don’t need to click on them, but sometimes you have automatic little ads coming on your system.
“When that happens, I mean not with everything, but when it happens in the cases being investigated, without clicking on the ad, the mere fact that the ad showed up on your phone meant that the spyware was already inside. So you don’t need to click, it’s already there. I think mine has been compromised. I was informed by the reporters on Frontier, because I am one of the correspondents for their annual ranking, and they sent me an email that their system had been compromised.
“So Amnesty, along with others, are really campaigning really hard for a moratorium against those cyberware, for countries’ government to stop the development, the export, the import of these cyberware. We’re campaigning against facial recognitions that is used on a massive scale, and we’re very worried about generative AI.
“Of course, in September last month, a number of big AI companies in the US raised the possibility that the generative AI could not be controlled by humans. There are plenty of examples of people, companies, engineers losing control of their AI agent, and they are calling for regulation. We’re saying, yes, of course, regulation is needed, but the regulation cannot just be done at the hands of the companies, which is what they were proposing.
“Regulations must be international. It must be multi-stakeholder. It concerns everyone, even if there is no company in a given country.
“Therefore, we believe that it should be driven by the United Nations or by certainly a multilateral institution, let’s call it this way. We are absolutely convinced that it needs to involve everyone, not just American companies, but also Chinese companies, as well as the startups and others that
are starting to emerge in other places, through open source in particular. It needs to have independent mechanisms of verification, which is not the case at the moment.
“There is no regulation at the moment. The only regulatory framework that makes sense is the one that was created by the European Union a couple of years ago, called the AI Act. There is also a similar initiative in Korea, but that’s really the only place, and Donald Trump has been doing his best to threaten the EU.
“I don’t know about Korea, but certainly to threaten the EU against the regulatory framework, because he considers them as seeking to undermine American companies. That’s about AI and cyber warfare. I’m concerned that if we can create a multilateral collaboration to make a strong regulation, but if in case of alternative states get the technology and run this for malicious intention by state-sponsored hacking operatives, how can we prevent it? How can we get rid of it?
“So despite ongoing international cooperations on regulatory frameworks around artificial intelligence, there are a lot of countries with authoritarian tendencies that would likely not support it or try to find ways around it and still operate to hack people or to do that kind of cyber surveillance. So what would Amnesty like to do to address that? Okay, so first I have to tell you that it is not just government with authoritarian tendencies that are using cyberware or opposing regulation of AI.
“The United States is the biggest opponent to the regulation of AI right now.. And the United States, like Morocco, like European governments, like China, of course, or Russia, they are all using AI tools and cyberwar. So sadly, the problem that you have rightly identified is not just the problem with a few governments such as China. It’s a global problem.
“Look, at the moment, no one trusts each other in the international system. So to regulate when nobody trusts each other is really difficult. The US does not trust China, China does not trust the US, and they are the main driver for AI. But, you know, we need to keep pointing out… We need to keep pointing out…
“For Amnesty, we’ve got to keep highlighting the big risk, current and future, and really try to, you know, ensure that the people in those countries, including China, demand regulation, because ultimately, we are all going to be affected. You know, it’s going to be affecting us, the people. So we need to raise awareness everywhere, so that people demand of their government that they regulate AI.
“There are examples on the biological weapons. People did not really trust each other. But nevertheless, we do have some workable regulation. Same with nuclear weapons. So we need to look at those models and keep pushing for them. That’s it for AI.”
Protests in France
Khaosod English:
“I have to ask, what about France? Your beloved country. I mean, there’s so much talk [about the protests] over the past few weeks on the streets? And on the demands?”
“Now, for France, the French students have been protesting for weeks against the attacks and the violations of what they consider to be their right to education. The French students have very good reason to protest. Their environment is, unless they live in very privileged part of the country, the buildings have not been repaired.
“Roofs are falling down. When teachers go on sick leave or retire, they are not being replaced. Kids who are taking baccalaureate do not have enough professors to prepare them for the exams.
“It is a scandal what is happening to the education system. And by the way, the same is happening to the health system. The socialized right to education and health in France has been deeply weakened through years of policy choices that have resulted in less and less investment.
“So, at heart for Amnesty International, there are very legitimate demands on the part of the students that should have been listened to. Instead, the government did what the government has done for many years. It has used the police to repress and suppress.
“There is a police force in France that is no longer, in our view, a republican force working for the people. It is only a police security force working for the state. It has lost its raison d’être. It has access to weapons that should never be used for the management of protest, probably not even used in your country. So, some grenades were used in the response to the student protest.
“There are at least two kids who have lost their hands, two children. One kid has lost the bottom of his head because of the grenade, because of the mismanagement. They no longer know how to handle mass protests with massive movements of people. All they know is guns, weapons, grenades, and so on and so forth.
“So, in response, the government has said that some weapons will no longer be used in protests involving children. But many protests include children and adults, students and trade unionists.
“So, on Saturday, the protest was broad. It involved half of the people were students, half of the people were non-students. And for this protest, the police was able to use grenades again. So, we have a fundamental problem right now.
“It has been incremental with the government giving more and more repressive powers to the police. There are laws that have been enacted, more laws that are being considered that will actually deeply undermine the rule of law in France and make it, frankly, an authoritarian government. For instance, they are proposing that those that have been involved in so-called breaking, rioting, that their rights to vote be taken away.
“Where else do you see that? This is France. France is on a very bad path.”